tv Charlie Rose PBS September 26, 2014 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with mathio renzi, the prime minister of italy. >> come back to be dreamers, in the last period, we lost a dream and we make nightmares. we lost the possibility, the ability to show ourselve as real men and women, able to have big projects. the last period, italy is-- was sad, was lack of-- . >> rose: and we conclude with laurent fabius, the foreign minister of france. >> the problem with syria is it must not be used by bashar
assad in order to gain ground. and right now unfortunately, the moderate position is strong in some parts but weak in other parts, for it will take time. but we are, you know, sharing that same goals. but the americans are doing some job, an excellent job. we are doing some job. maybe in the future we shall evolve. but for the time being we are concentrating on iraq. >> rose: renzi and fabius next. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on
so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: matteo renzi is here, he has been prime minister of italy since february 2014. he's the leader of the democratic party, a center left political party in italy, international monetary fund said last week italy will remain in recession throughout 2014. the imf report urged renzi to push flew his ambitious reform agenda. italy's structural weakness continues to impede its
growth potential. the country's debt is the second largest in the euro zone, it is predicted to peak at 136% of gdp this year. italy currently holds the rotating presidency of the council of the european union. matteo renzi visited silicon valley and met with technology entrepreneurs before arriving in new york for the united nations general assembly. i'm very pleased to have him at this table for the first time because i love his country. welcome. >> thank you so much. >> rose: what did you learn from silicon valley? >> i chose silicon valley because it's the capitol of the future. it's one of the capitol of the future. and our country italy is an incredible capitol of the past so we must change our perception. and we must invest in the future. silicon valley could be a model, could be a place of aspiration. and i received a strong message from the italian people who stay in silicon
valley. we can't change the world if you can't change the country, matteo, so i must change the country. and then everybody will change the world. >> rose: so how are you going to change the country? >> with a reform is very clear but in every field. liberal markets, constitutional reforms, fiscal system, terrible, paying-- italy is particular difficult. and investment in public administration, a fight against corruption, a new system of justice. so for everything we have project, very concrete, with the procedure in parliament. and i think with this reforms, we must absolutely give to italy the position of the past, the leadership. italy's leader.
not follower. in the last period we lost few times an opportunitiment now is the time to change. >> rose: you had the business community behind you. do you still? >> my business community, the business community is an incredible asset for the future of country, if finally we invest in opening markets in italy. because in the past, you know, the business community are very close. and the flag, but it's not important the passport of entrepreneur. it's important the quality of project, the quality of projects. so the business community must invest in the made in italy. made in italy means a few things. wine, food, culture. but also quality of engineering. ability to innovation,
investment in technology. the renaissance today is in the new investors in silicon valley or if boston than in italy. we must come back to invent and to change. >> rose: so you can bring a silicon valley to italy in your judgement? italy's own silicon valley. >> italy is not simply a silicon valley. italy is a place in which ideas could become projects. ideas could change the life of the people. but in this moment it's impossible if we don't realize the reforms of justice. today in italy, to have a process, we need three years in the civil court. in u.s.a. you gave germany one year. so we must further reduce the gap. we must absolutely change ourselves. >> rose: when they say italy desperately needs structural reform, what do they mean? >> i think first of all
italy cuts numbers of politicians and make easy the prospect of politics. >> rose: you mean election rules and earnings everything else? >> in general f you think in usa there are 500 members of parliament, in italy, 1,000. i am very proud of my country. but it's impossible to double the members of parliament of the united states. so the reduction of power of politicians is a part of this challenge. >> rose: politicians do not want to give up power. >> politicians have power of veto in this moment, veto block decision. we must come back-- we must come back to the model in which politicians are not the people who blocked the ideas, but will prevent the future. the role of politics around
history in hit ree of machiavelli to today is-- the future, not defend the present. for me this is the structural reforms,. >> rose: what did burr lus cone do to the image of italy. >> burlosconi was prime minister for nine years,. obviously with burlusconi in italy there is the destruction of discussion in politics because a part loved him, a part hate me. the part in my opposition is my enemy in the discussion of politics. but i think we must close the discussion of the past and we must discuss about the future. there is a new generation. >> rose: but he had a point
of business, so did you, leonardo dellveccio, one of the wealthiest by owners in italy f not the wealthiest, he said about you renzi is the best government we've had in ten years. and there are many obstacles to improve. >> we have a lot of obstacles in this moment. but i think we must absolutely find the solution, not find an-- i think in italy last 20 years, 50 years, the politicians explained the list of problems. show every problem but don't solve the problem. so i'm not sure if i am good or bad government-- governor. i'm sure i must absolutely solve a list of problem
presented by the last generation and finally show we are able to change. >> rose: and what do you need to change italy? what is essential at this moment to get through the reforms you have talked about, creating growth,. >> we must absolutely create growth to give a number of very-- an employee for give a possibility for the strategy, for the strategy for the future. but if you ask me what is the things you need to change, first of all, con ken-- consensus of people, i received a consensus, incredible. 41% last election. the first time after 57 years in italy. my part is around europe. so second, the idea is very
clear and very determined. and we have, i don't know, if this is sufficient but this is very important. the third is the courage. i have only one possibility. give a very strong message, if i solve the problem, i change italy. but if i don't able to solve the problem, i must retire myself from politics. >> rose: if you can't do it, you'll get out. >> i think if-- i think we can absolutely obtain the results. i'm confident. >> rose: on foreign policy, there's always been a relationship between-- between italy and libya. and you have said libya is more important to us than syria. because there is a collapsing -- >> for italy. >> rose: central government. >> it's difficult to make ranking of problems around the world.ñr
obviously it's a problem ukraine. obviously it's a problem of sirria. obviously it's a problem iraqment but for me, for my country, the most neighbor with the problem is libya. libya now is under control. and we must absolutely create the condition to give an open for the libyan people an also for the european people. so for me, yes, this is the first priority. >> rose: but does a larger community have to come together to make sure that happens? or can the libyan does it on their own? >> i think libya after the decision to stop the dictator of qaddafi with intervention of nato, a few people believe, okay, mission established. mission accomplished. because when you use a very
important intervention in an area as libya, you must think also about the future. not all about the present. this now is difficult but possible. we must, we are the only one country with our embassy open in tripoli in this moment. we were to create the respect of last elections in june 2014, and we reduce the bottle and the fights on the streets. i think libya must be absolutelyó about libya, we must have more attention by the-- community. i spoke about it yesterday with ban ki-moon and i'm confident italy is ready to make the role, to play a very important role. in libya we are absolute the
disposition of the international community. but the international community must think libya is not the last problem. >> rose: many people look at europe and they say they have two great men over there. one is pope francis which i'm sure you agree with. >> pope francis is a great man. this is my personal point of view. very simply, i met him with my family. and i think he was a man very important for the catholic church, obviously. for the relation with italy and vatican. but also to give a message of hope. because in this moment, the words of pope francis are words of hope. and if you think, if you ran a newspaper, if you verify media message a few times, the message is not a message of hope.
why francis pope give this opportunity, this words of kindness in the direction of man. this is absolutely new in international discussion this moment. and for me it's absolutely important. that i value, human value of this. >> rose: a past oral role as well. the other man that many people say have the ling of gateness is mario dragi am when they look at the euro zone they think he saved it. >> i think mario is a good man, very able to lead european central bank, unfortunately european central bank is not-- fed lal reserve, the power-- . >> rose: is not the federal reserve. >> is not the federal reserve but the power, the role, the relation is different s the modality o
of-- but draggee obtained a few important results. i think the role of him for euro is absolutely a good role. and i think really it's a great man for the job. >> rose: how will we measure whether matteo renzi succeeds. >> in the next two years italy will be more open, smarter and simpler. this is the message we warn about. because this happening, we must absolutely, don't waste nothing. nothing a day. because we must absolutely work step-by-step every day to reduce the po web-- power of bureaucracy and to give this message of efficiency in our country. i'm confident that this
could be possible. but we must absolutely don't waste nothing. don't waste absolutely possible. we can't lose the-- we can lose the next election but we can't lose now this opportunity. >> rose: and what dow say, finally to the italian people they must do in in order to restore italy's greatness. >> come back to be dreamers. because in the last period, we lost a dream and we make nightmares. we lost the possibility, ability to show ourselves as real men and women able to have a big project. in the last period italy was sad. was lack of a fissure.
and my fourth thing, my fourth message is exactly that. my fellow citizens, we are able to come back to be dreamers, to come back to give the message of equality, call of life an lifestyle and ideals and the cultural and the beauty around the world. but for this we must change. change is not a bad word. change in the only way to come back to be dreamers. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you. >> rose: pleasure to have you here. >> thank you. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. laurent fabius is here. he is the french foreign minister. he also served as prime minister of france from 1984 to 1986. he's in new york for the united nation general assembly. on wednesday an algerian-based jihadi group released a video showing the execution of a french tourist. the group claimed solidarity with the islamic state in iraq and syria, also called dash. now by people including the
foreign minister. france joined the united states air strikes against isis in iraq last friday. it is not yet participated in strikes against the group in syria. i'm pleased to have laurent fabius back at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: let me, as so many people around the world and certainly the united nations, extend our own sympathy for the loss of this french citizen. >> it's a terrible day because, you know, he has been not only assassinated but beheaded. it was a terrible cruelty. and these people, of dash-- . >> rose: is a term for the islamic state because you object to using islamic state. >> yes, because they want to be a state but they are not. and they say that they represent islam, but it's not true. >> rose: no islamic leader i know says that they represent them. >> but you know, they want
to have a sort of bloody-- it could not work, we shall not surrender. because we are defend freedom. and these people, we cannot accept the way they behave. you know, it's a fight not only from france but all of us. and we have to stand. so what does france do with respect to the united states and the other-- . >> rose: you're participating in this. >> we have decided as you said, we have decided in iraq to bring our air support and the iraqi had asked us to do that and we are doing that. we have given weapons. we have given humanitarian aid as well. and-- . >> rose: in iraq. >> in iraq. >> rose: in syria we are
directly helping the moderate position in terms of humanitarian aid n terms of weapons as well. and but the two things are interrelated because this dash group is transnational. and the america has decided with some arab countries to be present in-- but you know we cannot do anything. and for the time being we are concentrating on iraq. >> rose: i don't understand why you can't do air strikes into syria. >> you don't understand? why? no, we could, we come obviously we could. >> rose: why do you refuse to. >> we didn't refuse. we don't want to do everything. an our view is that okay, we are supporting what the americans are doing. but we have to pay attention because dash has to be fought, okay. but the problem in syria is
that it must not you used by bash ar al-assad in order to gain ground. and therefore, and right now, unfortunately, the moderate position is strong in some parts but weak in other parts. for it will take time. but we are, you know, sharing the same goals. but the americans are doing some jobs, an excellent job. we are doing some job. maybe in the future we shall evolve but for the time being we are concentrating on iraq. >> rose: i still don't understand why there's a difference. because the -- >> it's a different story, why? because you know in iraq we have been asked by the iraqi government to support them, in syria it's not the same story. >> rose: because you do not want to be engaged in something that supports the syrian government s that the reason? >> it's obvious. in syria we have not only
one, dash. the other one bashar al-assad, you know that we don't want to support them. by no means. in fact, if you remember bashar is the origin of dash. you know that bashar has liberated prisoners from prison. and they are the leaders of dash. maybe you know that during years, bashar has not fought dash. and today, i mean today, dash is having a lot of oil and part of this oil is sold to bashar. therefore we have not only-- . >> rose: by dash? >> yes, by dash. and it has been decided and it's excellent, by u.n. recently to cut the
financing because now people there are maybe states who finance dash. and through oil and through different means. and we have to cut them. but to come back to your main question, we have not only one adversary, we have two. and we have to organize ourselves. i mean u.s., france, arab countries and the coalition, in order to fit against the two. >> rose: are you pleased that the americans are using their air power in syria? to attack isis. >> it's quite okay. and it's quite okay. and we have said and i say today that we are supporting them, yes. >> rose: what is it going to take in terms of quote boots on the ground to dismantle and destroy isis? >> and is the syrian, are the moderate forces from the free syrian army sufficient. and can they be made sufficient? >> there is a lesson to draw
from the recent past conflict. you cannot win a victory without the people themselves. in iraq, the iraqis. in syria, the syrian, okay. in iraq we think that thanks to our support the iraqi step-by-step would be stronger. and they can beat dash. and we are bringing our air support. in syria it's a bit different because as you pointed out the moderate position which has been fought both by bashar and the terrorists is sometimes in a strong position, sometimes in a difficult position. and it will take time in order to get it stronger. >> rose: can they do it in the end over the long run? >> yes. >> rose: do they have sufficient -- >> yes, we shall help them. >> rose: ground forces to do it. >> we shall help them.
not only us but americans, you know that it has been decided by the americans to give training to give 500 million dollars. saudi arabia as well, jordan as well, different countries as well. we had a meeting today this afternoon with what we call core group, all the people were supporting the syrian army, moderate position. and we have decided to support them. but agree it will take time. and in between we have to strike dash but to avoid that bashar will take advantage of this. therefore it's a bit difficult, you know. and we have to be veryical coordinated. >> rose: under no circumstances should there be any kind of relationship with bashar al-assad to defeat dash. >> no. bashar is wanting to take advantage. maybe you have seen that he has a proposal, saying i'm part and parcel of the collision. but bashar is at the origin
of dash and terrorists. because you know, things are going so quickly that we have forgotten the origin of that. you remember, charlie, that when was it, three years ago, with the so-called arab spring, at the beginning it was maybe ten youngster who were wanting in the countryside in syria to be freer, to be more free. and bashar has reacted in such a way, it's unbelievable, that today you have 200,000 people who have been killed. >> rose: an refugees. >> and refugees. >> and is a dictator. you remember the chemical weaponment and some people say that today is still using chemical weapons. >> rose: a different kind. >> yes, different kind. but chemical is chemical. and therefore, by no means we shall support him. by no means. >> rose: do you
believe-- did isis get money from arab countries? >> today, i hope not. >> rose: but before. i mean are the same countries that are now, this is the charge that president rouhani said to me yesterday. he found it interesting that the countries who had helped build up isis because they were opposed it to bashar al-assad are now fighting seis is-- isis, is that true? >> well, i think that, well, that there has been financing. it can be states, it can be persons, private-- . >> rose: foundations, individuals. >> et cetera. what i think is that some people or some states have thought that it was possible, you know to have a sort of agreement which will protect them if they were giving money. but it was completely foolish.
dash, their idea, and it's new if you compare them with al qaeda. al qaeda you know, they were not wanting to have the state. where these ones, the so-called chall i fate are want-- chalifate are wantsing to have a state, syria, iraq, jrd an, palestine. and if they are that, afterward t will be saudi arabia, it will be turkey, and then your and then why not u.s. and these people-- . >> rose: that's why it is organized t is essential to stop them now with everything you possibly can. >> we are defending ourselves. i mean all of us. >> rose: but shouldn't it be all out to do that, everybody in in every way? >> yes, yes, yes. and i think that now these persons, these states have understood that themselves were-- men ayesed by dash.
and-- men ased by dash. and the reason why we have struggled it can seem ridiculous because it's legal, but legal aspects are porbts. now there is a res loution which has been -- by a unanimous vote saying that the financing that they completely cut and that every single country must take they were seis steps in order to prevent foreign fighters to go there. and under what we call chapter 7 which means that we can react and have sanctions if they don't do it. but my guess is that there has been an evolution. because all the countries, have understood that these guys were dangerous for everybody. >> what are the iranians doing? >> in iraq they have said, we have met president rouhani. and you know that he is close, geographically to iraq.
and his shiite and prime minister-- as well. and they said that they were not accepting that dash could take baghdad or irbil. >> rose: and you fought against that. >> yes. and they actually helped the iraq toy prevent that. now for syria, it's different because as you know, they are supporting bashar, hest hest has been present. and on the syrian case we don't agree with them at that point. but what are the idea, at the end of the day we shall have to have a political setting, you know, political agreement. and the idea is to have an agreement between the moderate position and some element of the regime with al bashar. >> bashar leaves and -- >> in a way, i don't know exactly what will be --
>> because you have to have political-- . >> rose: in by russia and iran as friends of bashar al-assad will be part of building some kind of -- >> yes. >> some kind of agreement in which he will give up the presidency. >> it was the idea when we signed the geneva one agreement and it is still true. but in between we have to have a strong moderate position, stronger. >> rose: is america leading this coalition? >> yes, they are leading its coalition. >> -- and run by the americans. >> yes. the next question is ba about france. and we are part and parcel of this coalition, coordination. but you know that we are paying to the autonomy t has always been that way. we are coordinating our efforts and actions with the u.s. and there's no problem. >> rose: okay. let me turn to the unga. there is, this is climate week here.
and i think in 2014 you are going to chair the climate. >> yes, in december of 2015, yes, in paris. >> rose: what progress is being made? >> well, i should say that in terms of practical steps, well, there has been some progress. maybe not enough. for instance, we have to capitalize what we call green farm because you need money. and there are some countries which have announced some money but not enough. okay. there have been, there have been a lot of speeches and going all of them in the same direction, saying we have to have an agreement. because this question of, i don't speak about climate change. i speak about chime at disruption because it's complete disruption. and every single -- >> and it is not true
because in some parts it's warming. in some parts it's cooler. and in every parts's extreme phenomenon. but to answer your question, there have been some practical steps. most people important thing is that the private sector has decided to invest in the new direction. that's brand-new. the local government, i mean town, regions, have decided to go in the same direction. and there is very strong movement saying that we have to make the decision. >> rose: a decision to -- >> well, to-- to halt, to stop this complete-- . >> rose: carbon in the air. >> this situation where our world, it will be impossible
to live in. and ban ki-moon who is really involved in that has a great formula. and i asked to ban, mr. secretary, can i use it. he said yes. therefore i use it. there is no plan b because there's no planet b. >> if we don't do it and do it quickly, because it's not a question within 40 years, it is right now. and we are the first generation to be aware of that and the last generation to be able to act. >> rose: there's a window of opportunity. >> a window of opportunity and necessity. >> rose: necessity. >> next year my impression is that chyna is better than it has been before in its commitment, are you completely right. there are major shifts, both in u.s. atsd tude, you know
by john kerrey completely-- obviously it is difficult for them to announce things now because you have the midterm election. but i hope that they will do it at the beginning of next year. and as chinese are concerned, they are fully aware. it's not a question of international pressure, it's a question for them, for their own lives. last time i was in beijing the same in paris we decided to have alternate traffic because the pollution was ten% more than the average. but the same day in beijing it was 10% more. it was 18 times the norm. and people couldn't breathe in the street. and children couldn't go to school. therefore it's an absolute necessity. it's very difficult for chinese because it's a
complete shift in their economy and they need growth. but the new element you are saying is that now people understand that it's not only constraint, it can be an opportunity which is offered. green growth, creation of jobs. it's a new big thing. and particularly for big business. >> rose: where is the resistance? what stands in the way of something that clearly threatens the plan snet. >> the resistance is that many people think that a decision will have to be taken within 50 years. no way. it has to be taken now. the resistance is that all of us are conservative. we are all conservative. and it's difficult to change our habit. we have to do it. but once more, no plan b, no plan b. >> at the beginning i was
not a -- of this. but i have known to chair t i'm serious and therefore i can tell you, charlie, that really it's the question, it's a big question. and we have to do it. >> rose: i want to come to the nuclear talks with iran which are you also a part of. but ebola is a loominging it seems to get worse and more threatening and more scary. >> yes. unfortunately that's true especially in three countries, as far as france is concerned, we are concerned about guinea. we've decided to-- we are doing what we have to do. but it's never enough. and we have a meeting tomorrow in the u.n.. and all of us, we have to concentrate on that.
but, once we, the epitom epitome-- epidemic will be stopped. but we have to understand that the basis of it is the weakness of the sanitary systems in those countriesment because when such an epidemy comes and you have no hospitals, no real medicine, no doctors, it's a catastrophe. and therefore we have first to stop that. and then to help them to build sanitary systems. >> rose: is there a scenario in which it could get out of control and be a global threat? >> that depends on our commitment. and we have to be committed. >> rose: the nuclear talks, you have said that you do not think they can be linked to the fight against dash, isis. they have to be-- they cannot be connected. >> sure, the french president said -- >> the iranian president-- .
>> rose: the iranian president said that to me yesterday as well. is anyone trying to link them. are the iranians trying to link them. are they basically saying if you make an agreement we can live with on nuclear we may change our participation against isis. >> no, they never said that. >> rose: they're not looking for that. >> they never said that to us. and they never spoke to us about this leverage. and they're right to do so. >> rose: why? >> because the question of atomic bomb is a question by itself. and you know, it's an expression that i have already used. and when i was discussing was my partners about it. i very often use the world in that question of nuclear things, you cannot be half pregnant. either you get it, or you don't get it. it's not sort of mixed bag. and what is the question. what is the problem. we're saying to the iranian,
you have the complete right to have civil nuclear energy. your power, your great civilization, you have the right. but so far as nuclear bomb is concerned, the answer is no. because it's too dangerous in this region, particularly. and we want to avoid any nuclear proliferation. and all the discussion which is very, very technical is to draw the consequences of this. i remember because we have always discussed it that i have asked and then accepted to put at the beginning of the statement. and i remember the words. and there are no circumstances iran will never seek nor possession-- possess any nuclear weapons. this sentence has been pronounced by the supreme world and by mr. rouhani.
i said if it has been pronounced by you, we repeat it. and we have to draw the technical consequence of that. never seek or possess nuclear weapons. we are discussing about iraq. we are discussing about-- we are discussing about control, in order to implement this principles. if they agree with that, it will be okay. if they don't t will be no. >> rose: so how do they agree to that? >>. >> well there a discussion because they agree with the principles but so far the consequences are drawn. they say well, yes, maybe that we have to be firm. because once more, you cannot be half pregnant. >> rose: there are many people who believe that they have not made a decision to seek a nuclear weapon. they just want to be able to be within reach of that if they make a decision. so is that the -- >> no the question is to renounce to the perspective. we cannot be halfway. >> rose: do you believe that you have sufficient economic
sanctions to force them to do that? >> its economic sanctions are very, very powerful. and though they are saying the yes, it's o it's very likely because of the economic sanctions that have to be discussed. but we have said that if we find an agreement, they will be lifted. and it will be important for the population. but once more, we wish they could find an agreement. but it depends on their commitment. it has to be clear because it's a matter of where you have to be clear. you cannot say maybe, maybe not. >> rose: and the supreme leader said they need 190,000 centrifuges. >> the sort of figures, no way, no wayment because-- you know that we are discussing about several hundred or some thousand, you can't discuss things is it 1,000, 2,000-- but if
it's 2,000 compared with 190,000. and if you don't want to have a nuclear bomb, what is the use of getting 190,000 centrifuges. if you raise the question you get the answer. >> rose: you're negotiating with them. what is their answer? >> it's not very clear. >> rose: exactly. are they transparent? >> well, we wish. >> rose: the aeia -- >> the ae-- . >> rose: at tomorrowic agency says -- >> the question of transparency applies both to the past and to the future. to the future obviously because we have to check. and not ourselves, i mean the agency. and for the past, because we want to be sure that in the past of all that has been done, because we don't want to-- but once more we hope any reasonable people hopes
that we can find an agreement. but it has to be a solid agreement. it cannot be sort of, you know-- . >> rose: its president of the united states has said an reconfirmed numerous times as has his vice president that it's unacceptable for iran to have nuclear weapons. and has said that they will not allow it. which means that if, in fact, they're close to getting them, they will launch a mill father attack. does the french government support that? >> it's what we call the breakout period. what does it mean? it means that imagine that we have an agreement, okay. it's great. but imagine too, that the agreement will not be implemented. it can happen. and therefore the breakout time must be sufficient for the partners to react.
and obviously the reaction would be a tough one. >> yes. >> rose: but we are trying to get an agreement. >> rose: do you support 9 u.s. decision. >> we support the fact that-- . >> rose: to prevent them from making nuclear weapons is there any breakout. >> we do not want any nuclear weapons, that's clear, that's clear. you ought to be a partner in the negotiations. >> rose: let me move to two places, one ukraine and then libya. ukraine. there are lots of economic relationships with russia in europe. will they impede a very strong reaction against putin if he tries to move on eastern ukraine. >> they will not impede.
we have already taken sanctions, you know that. well, it's true that sanctions is not good. neither for-- and the same for you. but know the problem is that we at the same time we have to be firm because we cannot accept a country, whatever it is, would make an annexation of a region. we cannot accept that. and you have to react. >> you seem to be accepting it. >> we are not accepting. we shall not go to war with russia. we have said. we have to take sanctions, on the other hand we have to have a dialogue. and germany and france in particular have organized a possible dialogue. but and today we have a cease-fire at the end of october. we shall have elections. and what is our idea. well, ukraine has to be a
free country w good relations with russia. and good relation with eu. well, the way it must be. if the russians, direct or indirectly are exerting the pressure, more than the pressure, we have to react it is a pressure of europe and security. but at the same time we have to keep open a question of diplomacy the ways an means in order to have a dialogue am we are there. i cannot say that i done know what exactly is in the head of mr. putin. i know that we are trying to have a dialogue but there are things that we cannot accept. >> libya. >>. >> uh-huh. >> it's a mess. libya it's a mess, yes. that's a real determine. it's a mess. and what can we do, tomorrow we shall have a meeting in u.n.. what is the idea? you have intact fact two problems. the first one is that you have two parliaments, two
governments, a different-- and we have to try and have a unite. and a new person has been appointed, mr. -- in order to favor these. because you cannot have two governments, two parliaments. that's one point. but it implies that other countries will not intervene, giving weapons, giving money. and we are back to the dash problem. >> okay. nass's the first one. the second one which is different is that in the thousand part of libya, you have a member of terrorist groups which were not affiliated to the two other ones. and which are very dangerous by themselves. and they have relationship with boko haram in nigeria,
with different terrorists. in sahar. and so therefore we have to deal with government and parliament in order to have a normal state. but i would hope that we shall do telephone. but we have to deal with the terrorist groups because there are a lot of weapons in libya. it's a rich country. and it's not a state. it's not a state. >> all right, or it's failed state. >> it a failed state. well, it has never been a state. it's a sort of a -- >> so does that mean -- >> no, i draw a lesson from that. you remember, charlie, that we have intervened in some other country. >> you lead the intervention. >> yes. we are in deposition but we said, okay. and i don't regret it. but what i regret is that there has been no followup afterwards. my understanding is that some times it's necessary to intervene. but it's not enough.
and you have to insurance the followup, political. and it's the same for what i was saying for syria and for iraq. it's not-- well, maybe it's necessary to send bombs, okay. but afterwards,-- and therefore the lack of followup, the political and rel followup has been a great mistake. >> why did it happen? or why did it fail? >> i don't know. i don't know but maybe it was an illusion to think that it was enough to kill mr. qaddafi and that everyone will be okay. no, no, that's not the way it goes. >> rose: two last questions, did anything come out of the meeting with the president today that he chaired with respect to fighting isis? didn't the president today u.s. president didn't he in a sense lead some conversations about what to do at the united nations? >> yes, today it was conversation. because the u.s. are chairing the security council.
and there was a meeting. >> rose: the president was president. >> yes, he was present. and the question was how do fight foreign fighters. and he chaired this meeting. >> rose: and what came out of that? >> a resolution, unanimous resolution which is excellent saying that every single country under chapter 7 must take legal elements, in order to prevent nationals to go in syria and so on. and that we have to cut the financing. and that it will be country under chapter 7. these are elements. >> rose: you know how much i like your country. >> yes, i know that. >> rose: and it's been good to me as well. so it is a mutual thing. the politics, this week nicholas sarkozy says he's coming back am he wants to run for president.
his country needs him. >> for the time being he didn't say that. i was here. he said that he wanted to run for the presidency of the conservative party. i agree that there must be some relation between the two. >> rose: what happened to, i mean here you're a ranking member of the socialist party. why is your party and your president so in disfavour with your people? >> well, i think the main reason is that as you know in europe the situation is not good. no growth. and particularly in france. we are doing reforms. but i think you are right. but reforms when there is n no-- are difficult. >> but has the president changed. has he made a socialist president said we have to be din than i imagined?
has he changed his attitude about what is necessary to put france on the right course? >>don't know if he has changed but i know because i'm working on foreign policiment but i'm working with him s dedicated to deliver the reforms which are-- . >> rose: to reform the economic system. >> yes. not only economic system but you know, you love france and we have a lot of assets. but there are reforms which too long have been postponed. maybe there is a relationship with your previous question. and we have to do that. and sometime they are not popular. but you know, when you are president you have to work, maybe it's not good for re-election but you are here in order to work for your country. it's as simple as that. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you, my pleasure.